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	<title>Comments on: The coalition of ideas is needed more than ever</title>
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		<title>By: An A-Z of rubbish arguments from No2AV (2nd edition) &#124; Yes to Fairer Votes &#8211; Birmingham</title>
		<link>http://socialliberal.net/2010/05/22/the-coalition-of-ideas-is-needed-more-than-ever/comment-page-1/#comment-7088</link>
		<dc:creator>An A-Z of rubbish arguments from No2AV (2nd edition) &#124; Yes to Fairer Votes &#8211; Birmingham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Apr 2011 15:10:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://socialliberal.net/?p=417#comment-7088</guid>
		<description>[...] Graham some months ago: My fears that Labour would end up getting trapped into a mindset of “what’s bad for the coalition is good for us” have proven to be well founded, and it is an infection which has spread across the board, even [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Graham some months ago: My fears that Labour would end up getting trapped into a mindset of “what’s bad for the coalition is good for us” have proven to be well founded, and it is an infection which has spread across the board, even [...]</p>
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		<title>By: An A-Z of rubbish arguments from No2AV &#124; Yes to Fairer Votes &#8211; Birmingham</title>
		<link>http://socialliberal.net/2010/05/22/the-coalition-of-ideas-is-needed-more-than-ever/comment-page-1/#comment-5929</link>
		<dc:creator>An A-Z of rubbish arguments from No2AV &#124; Yes to Fairer Votes &#8211; Birmingham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Feb 2011 23:55:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://socialliberal.net/?p=417#comment-5929</guid>
		<description>[...] Graham some months ago: My fears that Labour would end up getting trapped into a mindset of “what’s bad for the coalition is good for us” have proven to be well founded, and it is an infection which has spread across the board, even [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Graham some months ago: My fears that Labour would end up getting trapped into a mindset of “what’s bad for the coalition is good for us” have proven to be well founded, and it is an infection which has spread across the board, even [...]</p>
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		<title>By: James Graham on the dangers of Labour&#8217;s oppositionalism</title>
		<link>http://socialliberal.net/2010/05/22/the-coalition-of-ideas-is-needed-more-than-ever/comment-page-1/#comment-2892</link>
		<dc:creator>James Graham on the dangers of Labour&#8217;s oppositionalism</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Aug 2010 11:46:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://socialliberal.net/?p=417#comment-2892</guid>
		<description>[...] are worth highlighting here: My fears that Labour would end up getting trapped into a mindset of “what’s bad for the coalition is good for us” have proven to be well founded, and it is an infection which has spread across the board, even [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] are worth highlighting here: My fears that Labour would end up getting trapped into a mindset of “what’s bad for the coalition is good for us” have proven to be well founded, and it is an infection which has spread across the board, even [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Simon Hebditch</title>
		<link>http://socialliberal.net/2010/05/22/the-coalition-of-ideas-is-needed-more-than-ever/comment-page-1/#comment-2283</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon Hebditch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jun 2010 08:40:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://socialliberal.net/?p=417#comment-2283</guid>
		<description>James, what a vociferous response! I was simply raising an issue which should be thought about earlier rather than later. I am fully aware that coalition politics is the norm rather than the UK&#039;s traditional adversarial approach, and of course all those who favour electoral reform, as I do, should accept that coalition will result. It seems to me that it would be incredible for coalition parties to fight each other at the next election. They would be jointly responsible for the success or failure of the coalition programme - all of it not just the bits they liked.

So, as the next election date hoves into view the pressure to have an electoral pact would be immense - especially in the face of a resurgent Labour Party. Herein lies the danger of a new centre right force. 

How are we going to react when different policy pressures arise? For example, if Labour managed to get its act together, a big &quot;if&quot; I know, and they put an amendment to the voting reform bill designed to introduce AV+ on to a referendum question rather than AV, how will the Liberal Democrats vote? student tuition fees?

The argument that the individual components of the coalition will have the freedom to vote differently won&#039;t wash in the long term. A government is a government -with cabinet responsibility for the whole programme.

Finally, I full accept that maybe some long held political assumptions should be re-assessed but I hold to one clear principle - there are conservative forces and progressive forces in society which are in conflict. When push comes to shove on a range of major issues where will the Lib Dems stand?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James, what a vociferous response! I was simply raising an issue which should be thought about earlier rather than later. I am fully aware that coalition politics is the norm rather than the UK&#8217;s traditional adversarial approach, and of course all those who favour electoral reform, as I do, should accept that coalition will result. It seems to me that it would be incredible for coalition parties to fight each other at the next election. They would be jointly responsible for the success or failure of the coalition programme &#8211; all of it not just the bits they liked.</p>
<p>So, as the next election date hoves into view the pressure to have an electoral pact would be immense &#8211; especially in the face of a resurgent Labour Party. Herein lies the danger of a new centre right force. </p>
<p>How are we going to react when different policy pressures arise? For example, if Labour managed to get its act together, a big &#8220;if&#8221; I know, and they put an amendment to the voting reform bill designed to introduce AV+ on to a referendum question rather than AV, how will the Liberal Democrats vote? student tuition fees?</p>
<p>The argument that the individual components of the coalition will have the freedom to vote differently won&#8217;t wash in the long term. A government is a government -with cabinet responsibility for the whole programme.</p>
<p>Finally, I full accept that maybe some long held political assumptions should be re-assessed but I hold to one clear principle &#8211; there are conservative forces and progressive forces in society which are in conflict. When push comes to shove on a range of major issues where will the Lib Dems stand?</p>
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		<title>By: Social Liberal Forum &#187; Will we get fairer taxes under the coalition?:</title>
		<link>http://socialliberal.net/2010/05/22/the-coalition-of-ideas-is-needed-more-than-ever/comment-page-1/#comment-2268</link>
		<dc:creator>Social Liberal Forum &#187; Will we get fairer taxes under the coalition?:</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jun 2010 03:11:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://socialliberal.net/?p=417#comment-2268</guid>
		<description>[...] couple of weeks ago I wrote about the regressive alliance seeking to undermine the new coalition government at every turn.  If that seemed vague and [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] couple of weeks ago I wrote about the regressive alliance seeking to undermine the new coalition government at every turn.  If that seemed vague and [...]</p>
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		<title>By: James Graham</title>
		<link>http://socialliberal.net/2010/05/22/the-coalition-of-ideas-is-needed-more-than-ever/comment-page-1/#comment-2267</link>
		<dc:creator>James Graham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jun 2010 00:08:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://socialliberal.net/?p=417#comment-2267</guid>
		<description>Simon, I don&#039;t claim to have a crystal ball but you shouldn&#039;t either.  I don&#039;t accept for one second that the Lib Dems have irrevocally entrenched themselves in with the Tories.  I accept that that is a risk, but I also know that there are plenty of party members and MPs for whom that would be simply unacceptable.

Equally, it is hard to fathom where you are coming from regarding ideas about some kind of electoral pact.  Did the Lib Dems and Labour form a pact in Scotland after being in coalition after eight years?  What are the historical or international precedents for that claim?

Like this particular coalition or not, the simple fact is that coalition politics is the norm not the exception worldwide, and it does not automatically lead to permanent alliances.  I am very alive indeed to the risk that this coalition may be a political failure, but the certainty you have placed on such a doomsday scenario is badly misplaced.  Worse, if too many people on the left agree with you, they risk it becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Simon, I don&#8217;t claim to have a crystal ball but you shouldn&#8217;t either.  I don&#8217;t accept for one second that the Lib Dems have irrevocally entrenched themselves in with the Tories.  I accept that that is a risk, but I also know that there are plenty of party members and MPs for whom that would be simply unacceptable.</p>
<p>Equally, it is hard to fathom where you are coming from regarding ideas about some kind of electoral pact.  Did the Lib Dems and Labour form a pact in Scotland after being in coalition after eight years?  What are the historical or international precedents for that claim?</p>
<p>Like this particular coalition or not, the simple fact is that coalition politics is the norm not the exception worldwide, and it does not automatically lead to permanent alliances.  I am very alive indeed to the risk that this coalition may be a political failure, but the certainty you have placed on such a doomsday scenario is badly misplaced.  Worse, if too many people on the left agree with you, they risk it becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon Hebditch</title>
		<link>http://socialliberal.net/2010/05/22/the-coalition-of-ideas-is-needed-more-than-ever/comment-page-1/#comment-2261</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon Hebditch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jun 2010 12:45:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://socialliberal.net/?p=417#comment-2261</guid>
		<description>What are the future electoral consequences of the Coalition agreement? Lib Dems have so entrenched themselves in the coalition that it will be impossible to disengage in the next few years. Imagine edging towards 2015 and the next general election. Whether the coalition is perceived as successful or a failure, both Cons and Lib Dems will have to fight to defend the coalition corner. Why would Cons and Lib Dems fight each other and let Labour through in those circumstances? The inevitable logic of an entrenched coalition is a future electoral agreemnt or pact between the two parties! I don&#039;t support that at all being someone who has always argued for a realignment of the Left but we cannot discount the strong possibility that we are witnessing a longer term realignment of the centre right through electoral alliances.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What are the future electoral consequences of the Coalition agreement? Lib Dems have so entrenched themselves in the coalition that it will be impossible to disengage in the next few years. Imagine edging towards 2015 and the next general election. Whether the coalition is perceived as successful or a failure, both Cons and Lib Dems will have to fight to defend the coalition corner. Why would Cons and Lib Dems fight each other and let Labour through in those circumstances? The inevitable logic of an entrenched coalition is a future electoral agreemnt or pact between the two parties! I don&#8217;t support that at all being someone who has always argued for a realignment of the Left but we cannot discount the strong possibility that we are witnessing a longer term realignment of the centre right through electoral alliances.</p>
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		<title>By: Stuart White</title>
		<link>http://socialliberal.net/2010/05/22/the-coalition-of-ideas-is-needed-more-than-ever/comment-page-1/#comment-2239</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart White</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jun 2010 15:04:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://socialliberal.net/?p=417#comment-2239</guid>
		<description>James: I very much appreciate your comments on the Child Trust Fund. I do think that previous generations of Liberals who promoted the &#039;Ownership for all&#039; agenda - great Liberals like Elliot Dodds - would have been flabbergasted at the Lib Dem policy on this. On the Fabian analysis of the Lib Dem tax policy, I think we&#039;ll just have to agree to disagree. (Please note that though I blog at Next Left, the Fabian site, and I am a Fabian member, I do not speak for the Fabians and am perfectly happy to criticise the arguments coming from Fabian HQ if I think they are wrong.) 

On the wider issue of giving the right of your party some stick and standing up for social liberalism, I am happy to stand corrected that you have been doing this. Keep up the good work!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James: I very much appreciate your comments on the Child Trust Fund. I do think that previous generations of Liberals who promoted the &#8216;Ownership for all&#8217; agenda &#8211; great Liberals like Elliot Dodds &#8211; would have been flabbergasted at the Lib Dem policy on this. On the Fabian analysis of the Lib Dem tax policy, I think we&#8217;ll just have to agree to disagree. (Please note that though I blog at Next Left, the Fabian site, and I am a Fabian member, I do not speak for the Fabians and am perfectly happy to criticise the arguments coming from Fabian HQ if I think they are wrong.) </p>
<p>On the wider issue of giving the right of your party some stick and standing up for social liberalism, I am happy to stand corrected that you have been doing this. Keep up the good work!</p>
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		<title>By: James Graham</title>
		<link>http://socialliberal.net/2010/05/22/the-coalition-of-ideas-is-needed-more-than-ever/comment-page-1/#comment-2205</link>
		<dc:creator>James Graham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 May 2010 18:31:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://socialliberal.net/?p=417#comment-2205</guid>
		<description>Stuart,

Tim Horton&#039;s paper on the Lib Dem&#039;s tax policy was little more than a partisan attack. From the cover onwards, the bulk of it was focused on making silly smears such as suggesting that because Paul Staines agrees with it, raising personal allowance is a policy that only rightwing libertarians could possibly agree with.  It wasn&#039;t a sincere attempt at criticism, just a pre-election bit of propaganda.

While Tim was scoring cheap points, the SLF were &lt;a href=&quot;http://socialliberal.net/2010/03/15/no-tax-rises-ever-say-it-aint-so-nick/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;publicly criticising&lt;/a&gt; Nick Clegg&#039;s suggestion that the party should include a commitment in its manifesto to only tackle the deficit via cuts in spending. I think most people would laugh at suggestions that people like Evan Harris - and myself - have been shy over the years in criticising the party when we felt it was warranted.

One thing that surprised me about the Horton analysis is that it didn&#039;t even suggest the most obvious way to make the LD policy more redistributive, which is to lower the threshold for the higher rate of income tax by the same amount personal allowance is raised.  This would have meant that noone earning more than £37k would have got the tax rise while making it more affordable and retaining the many positive aspects of the policy. Yet by taking a dogmatic stance, insisting that anyone opposed to high income taxes is a dangerous libertarian (something which only amuses a Georgist such as myself), you simply shut yourself out of the debate.  I hope that can be rectified over the next few weeks and the Fabians will adopt a less dogmatic and partisan stance in future.

It is fair to say that we haven&#039;t been especially critical over the past few weeks, although we have made our key concerns about the coalition agreement very clear.  Either way, while we are not going to declare war on the coalition, expect a more critical tone as Parliament gets down to specifics.

On one point I will completely concede to you: the party&#039;s position on the Child Trust Fund was misguided and we should not have axed it.  While it is not as major a policy as the Fabians seem to think it is, and a perfect example of why half-measures fail to inspire the public (the only parent I know who supported the policy is a very well heeled Tory voter), you are right that it was a step in the right direction in terms of asset-based welfare and we should not have built on it instead of burying it.

I was wrong and you were right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stuart,</p>
<p>Tim Horton&#8217;s paper on the Lib Dem&#8217;s tax policy was little more than a partisan attack. From the cover onwards, the bulk of it was focused on making silly smears such as suggesting that because Paul Staines agrees with it, raising personal allowance is a policy that only rightwing libertarians could possibly agree with.  It wasn&#8217;t a sincere attempt at criticism, just a pre-election bit of propaganda.</p>
<p>While Tim was scoring cheap points, the SLF were <a href="http://socialliberal.net/2010/03/15/no-tax-rises-ever-say-it-aint-so-nick/" rel="nofollow">publicly criticising</a> Nick Clegg&#8217;s suggestion that the party should include a commitment in its manifesto to only tackle the deficit via cuts in spending. I think most people would laugh at suggestions that people like Evan Harris &#8211; and myself &#8211; have been shy over the years in criticising the party when we felt it was warranted.</p>
<p>One thing that surprised me about the Horton analysis is that it didn&#8217;t even suggest the most obvious way to make the LD policy more redistributive, which is to lower the threshold for the higher rate of income tax by the same amount personal allowance is raised.  This would have meant that noone earning more than £37k would have got the tax rise while making it more affordable and retaining the many positive aspects of the policy. Yet by taking a dogmatic stance, insisting that anyone opposed to high income taxes is a dangerous libertarian (something which only amuses a Georgist such as myself), you simply shut yourself out of the debate.  I hope that can be rectified over the next few weeks and the Fabians will adopt a less dogmatic and partisan stance in future.</p>
<p>It is fair to say that we haven&#8217;t been especially critical over the past few weeks, although we have made our key concerns about the coalition agreement very clear.  Either way, while we are not going to declare war on the coalition, expect a more critical tone as Parliament gets down to specifics.</p>
<p>On one point I will completely concede to you: the party&#8217;s position on the Child Trust Fund was misguided and we should not have axed it.  While it is not as major a policy as the Fabians seem to think it is, and a perfect example of why half-measures fail to inspire the public (the only parent I know who supported the policy is a very well heeled Tory voter), you are right that it was a step in the right direction in terms of asset-based welfare and we should not have built on it instead of burying it.</p>
<p>I was wrong and you were right.</p>
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		<title>By: Stuart White</title>
		<link>http://socialliberal.net/2010/05/22/the-coalition-of-ideas-is-needed-more-than-ever/comment-page-1/#comment-2202</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart White</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 May 2010 12:33:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://socialliberal.net/?p=417#comment-2202</guid>
		<description>James: as a Labour social liberal I obviously sympathise with your position. I do think that the options open to the Lib Dems after the election were all bad, and there is a reasonable case that the option your party took was the best of a bad lot. So we in Labour should not get huffy and sanctimonious.

That said...

We Labour social liberals are pretty outspoken when it comes to criticising our own party, e.g. my own posts at Next Left on civil liberties themes. What I see much less of - though perhaps I have just missed it - is a similar degree of self-criticism by social liberal Lib Dems. For example, when the Fabians published a very good criticism of the Lib Dem income tax policy, the response from Lib Dems, including yourself, was extremely defensive. If you want to make common cuase with Labour&#039;s social liberasl, as I hope you will, then I think you need to be more willing to give your own party - and the Coalition government - some stick.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James: as a Labour social liberal I obviously sympathise with your position. I do think that the options open to the Lib Dems after the election were all bad, and there is a reasonable case that the option your party took was the best of a bad lot. So we in Labour should not get huffy and sanctimonious.</p>
<p>That said&#8230;</p>
<p>We Labour social liberals are pretty outspoken when it comes to criticising our own party, e.g. my own posts at Next Left on civil liberties themes. What I see much less of &#8211; though perhaps I have just missed it &#8211; is a similar degree of self-criticism by social liberal Lib Dems. For example, when the Fabians published a very good criticism of the Lib Dem income tax policy, the response from Lib Dems, including yourself, was extremely defensive. If you want to make common cuase with Labour&#8217;s social liberasl, as I hope you will, then I think you need to be more willing to give your own party &#8211; and the Coalition government &#8211; some stick.</p>
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